Posts by stephen Bates

41

WTSComplainstoGuardianBatesRepliesFloggingCase

by Lionel_P_Hartley in

stephen bates recently wrote an article about the flogging death of a girl in chicago http://www.guardian.co.uk/archive/article/0,4273,4301026,00.html.

he kindly sent me a copy of a letter he received from the wts office in pennsylvania and gave me permission to post it.

i don't have time to fix the formatting right now.. .

stephen Bates

Dear Nassau,

Thank you for your reply. I am sorry that I cannot conduct this debate in Dutch and praise your accomplishment in writing in English.
I think you labour under a number of misapprehensions though. No journalist is exempt from criticism and I have never suggested that I should be an exception to this rule. I merely pointed out that no one had yet pointed out an error in what I have written about the JWs. Neither have you!
You seem to think that writing about the Jehovah's Witnesses occupies all my time. Nothing could be further from the truth.They are very insignificant to me and scarcely an obsession of my newspaper. Of more than 200 of my articles in the Guardian last year just three were about the JWs - the year before the number was one.
If you saw the Guardian (but why should you?) you would know that I have written highly critical articles about the Catholic church (many more than about the JWs!) and the Church of England and that, as LP Hartley pointed out earlier in this thread, at the end of last year I sued and won substantial financial damages from the Catholic Herald newspaper here, and a complete apology, for their questioning the integrity of my reporting. That was on a Catholic issue, by the way - when the church forced the resignation of the archbishop of Wales for shielding two paedophile priests. Do the JWs do that to their elders, do you know?
My colleagues here have also written critically of other religions: our Delhi correspondent had a harrowing 2,000 word article about the caste-killing of two young lovers by Hindu relatives a few months ago and others have provided several columns and articles critical of the Muslim treatment of women in Afghanistan and elsewhere.
In the Catholic church in England and Wales there have been 21 convictions of priests (out of a total of 5,000 priests) in relation to sexual offences in recent years. No religion is exempt from this sort of thing and no one believes that its adherents are perfect, or that when they stray it is the religion that is at fault. But I just look at the difference in response between the RCs and the JWs on this terrible issue.
The Catholic church here did not blame others but set up an independent inquiry to recommend how the church should deal with the problem and has said it will implement all its 83 draconian recommendations immediately. These include vetting of all appointments (including consulting police and local authority records), appointment of surveillance staff in every parish and diocese, annual reports and the establishment of an independent national office to investigate complaints and aid victims. The church has apologised and paid compensation to all victims and promised to investigate any further complaints.
The JWs as I understand it decline to acknowledge there might be any problem and, like you, accuse anyone who criticises as being motivated by malignity towards the religion itself, rather than malefactors within it. I know where I'd rather be in this instance!
I apologise for saying your appreciation of Northern Ireland was ignorant rather than misinformed, but I can't be responsible for where you get your information or what colleagues on other newspapers write. I did, if you noticed, point out an example of ignorance in your assertion about the "Protestant" church - there are several varieties there.
Now I really think this correspondence must be boring to other people and really should stop.

Best wishes, Nassau,

Stephen Bates

41

WTSComplainstoGuardianBatesRepliesFloggingCase

by Lionel_P_Hartley in

stephen bates recently wrote an article about the flogging death of a girl in chicago http://www.guardian.co.uk/archive/article/0,4273,4301026,00.html.

he kindly sent me a copy of a letter he received from the wts office in pennsylvania and gave me permission to post it.

i don't have time to fix the formatting right now.. .

stephen Bates

I have just caught up with Nassau's comments, which I am sorry that I don't quite understand, not least because s/he says he wants to raise two different things and then raises four.
As I see it, a journalist should report as objectively as possible, being aware that complete impartiality is impossible. And that one has to use one's judgement about the balance of probabilities and "truth" on any issue so that this does not preclude coming down on one side or the other.
Some correspondents and evidently the WTS itself seem to believe that I have some malign animus against the JWs or that I am motivated by some spite or hatred of religion. Nothing could be further from the truth - I had no views about the JWs until I started dealing with them and researching the UN story and its background. I think in the circumstances, seeing their publications, hearing from former witnesses on this website and from current witnesses and speaking to others directly, that it is impossible not to conclude that the organisation bears a heavy burden of responsibility and hypocrisy in its dealings with the membership and the outside world.
It is impossible to retain equanimity here, even as one tries to remain as objective in one's reporting as possible. Indignation is a natural response but I have tried to remain as fair as possible. How, though, do you remain on an even keel in the face of such palpable nonsense as the theocratic war strategy or the attitude to the UN? But no one has yet pointed out to me any significant factual or interpretive errors in what I have written.
I am not trying to attack religion in general, or particular, Nassau, or its adherents. But I don't see why I should not point out some malignities in the way men practise it. I don't doubt people's sincerity but I am surely allowed to question their motives occasionally. It is a journalist's job not to take things at face value - otherwise all is a suffocating blandness which is not genuinely informative to the reader. We must question in order to inform. I don't restrict this to the JWs - as others have pointed out I have written critically of other religions, including my own, Catholicism, as well. To know that there are failings in my religion does not stop me being a Catholic or going to Mass.
Finally: Northern Ireland. This is much too comnplicated a subject to discuss here. Even at the level of definitions Nassau reveals a certain degree of ignorance: there are several varieties of Protestantism in NIreland of varying degrees of vehemence and bigotry. My newspaper has written critically of the situation in the province and the behaviour of its inhabitants for decades. To say though that some NIreland folk misuse their religion and even that some ministers of religion have manipulated them to exacerbate the social, economic, religious, political and historical tensions there is not to argue that Christianity should therefore be junked.
Does this help? Sorry to go on....

41

WTSComplainstoGuardianBatesRepliesFloggingCase

by Lionel_P_Hartley in

stephen bates recently wrote an article about the flogging death of a girl in chicago http://www.guardian.co.uk/archive/article/0,4273,4301026,00.html.

he kindly sent me a copy of a letter he received from the wts office in pennsylvania and gave me permission to post it.

i don't have time to fix the formatting right now.. .

stephen Bates

Sorry to intrude again - just spotted that I wasn't actually offered the leadership of Australia by Mr and Mrs Ozzie. Never mind - with one Brit as head of state, who needs another? And anyway, beating the Poms at cricket just wouldn't be the same...I'd take the sponsorship though - anything to get away from the British winter.

41

WTSComplainstoGuardianBatesRepliesFloggingCase

by Lionel_P_Hartley in

stephen bates recently wrote an article about the flogging death of a girl in chicago http://www.guardian.co.uk/archive/article/0,4273,4301026,00.html.

he kindly sent me a copy of a letter he received from the wts office in pennsylvania and gave me permission to post it.

i don't have time to fix the formatting right now.. .

stephen Bates

Thank you every one for your kind remarks (even the old hippie!) I don't think I've ever been offered the leadership of three different countries in one day before...or any day, come to that. Now I've got three votes, that only makes about another 400 million to go.

One thought occurs to me (I shld have put it in my letter to Mr Brown)what sort of religion is it that abandons people, however terrible, when they do wrong? Isn't there some cock crowing in Mr Brown's attempt to distance the JWs from the Slacks, particularly if, as some correspondents to this thread have said, they must have remained members if they were not disfellowshipped and continued to attend meetings however irregularly?

Surely Christianity involves offering compassion, succour and aid, particularly to those who because of their behaviour deserve it least. What sort of religion? A religion which gives even the appearance of sanctioning the brutal chastisement of children based on Biblical precepts from another age and culture, I guess....Really Mr Brown ought to think these things through, but maybe that's not to be expected in his position.

Thanks again,

Steve Bates

589

MAJOR UN/WTS NEWS- UN LETTER & 1992 Press R...

by hawkaw in

as of 6:02 pm last night i received a facsimile from paul hoeffel at the un on the wts.. he gave me 3 of the 4 things i requested in two paragraphs.. i have sent a scanned version to steve bates and someone else.. i sent it to kent and randy.

and kent and randy have posted the official united nations letter on their web sites.. here is the letter - put your cursor on the image and then right click on your mouse and hit "save image" to your computer.. .

after you look at kent's web site and you people still think this it is a fake letter, phone paul hoeffel yourself at (212) 963-8070.. hawk

stephen Bates

Dear Friends,

In case anyone is wondering about the name on my splendid recent email from the JW called quastie1...Ian Mayes is the readers' editor of the Guardian and is a perfectly innocent party - he just forwarded me quastie's note. He is the man whose job it is on the paper to receive readers' complaints and comments and he's starting to get used to receiving abusive e-mails, especially from people like quastie (I imagine him to be a small furry animal for some reason, with prominent teeth and a deep burrow) who don't have the courage or conviction to sign their own names. Our letters editor (who handles the readers' letters page) has also received a few - notably the one from Mr Gillies, who has somehow gone all quiet again.

Best wishes,

Steve Bates

PS: The Tablet is carrying an article by me this Friday: www.thetablet.co.uk

37

Media Dept London HQ - UN Letter

by Celtic in

jw
friends

hawk was most helpful in supplying letter to the board here a day or so ago re: wtbts membership of dpi un.. i rang the media department in london today who said that they were well aware of the letter and its contents.. asked why the organisation seems to be in contradiction to its litureture the wt and awake, concerning the beast of revelation, i was told by the department that the society has never been affiliated to the un.

the only reason why they belonged to the dpi was to access their, (the un), library resources.. i asked if the comments (non-affiliation) could be sent to me via email.

i was told that that was not nessarsary as the un had already supplied information.

stephen Bates

Apologies folks - just been told by the Tablet that my piece is not going in this week (the IRA'S decision to disarm prompted an article by John Hume, the Catholic Irish Nobel prize winner, which caused mine to be dropped at a late moment after it was already in type). I had this problem with getting my stuff promptly in the Guardian too. Hopefully the article will go in the Tablet next week - they liked the article but RCs outweigh JWs I am afraid in a Catholic newspaper...

Steve Bates

37

Media Dept London HQ - UN Letter

by Celtic in

jw
friends

hawk was most helpful in supplying letter to the board here a day or so ago re: wtbts membership of dpi un.. i rang the media department in london today who said that they were well aware of the letter and its contents.. asked why the organisation seems to be in contradiction to its litureture the wt and awake, concerning the beast of revelation, i was told by the department that the society has never been affiliated to the un.

the only reason why they belonged to the dpi was to access their, (the un), library resources.. i asked if the comments (non-affiliation) could be sent to me via email.

i was told that that was not nessarsary as the un had already supplied information.

stephen Bates

I've just caught up with your correspondence about Mr Gillies' letter about my articles to the Guardian. The position is that Mr Gillies' letter will not be published in our newspaper because it was untruthful.
The Guardian publishes corrections and clarifications and allows letters to be published contradicting what has been reported but it does not gratuitously print letters that are deceitful or intended to mislead. I was able to point to the falsities in Mr Gillies' letter as a reason for not publishing it and this was accepted.
My letter to him was a personal note and not really intended for publication - I wanted to point out what I took to be the inadequacies in his reply. I showed both letters to one of my correspondents on this board and they were posted within minutes. I don't complain about this because, after all, Mr Gillies' letter was written for publication and who better to see it than those most interested in the issue, especially when they are in a good position to assess and analyse what he wrote? I have found this most illuminating!
For information, I believe one further article by me, will be published in this Friday's issue of the Tablet (www.thetablet.co.uk). The Tablet is a highly respected Catholic weekly, which is widely read in senior religious circles in Britain and north America. It does not contain the latest toing and froing with Mr Gillies, because it was written before his letter arrived, but it is certainly informed by some of the things I have been reading here over the last couple of weeks.

Best wishes,

Steve Bates

43

New Guardian Article

by Trilobite in

jw
friends

here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/story/0,2763,574175,00.html

stephen Bates

Dear Fodeja,

Thanks for your best wishes and comments.
I did not think I had mixed fact and opinion particularly. All writing carries some prejudice with it (unless it is to be entirely bland and tedious) and, although my opinions may have come through (I think in the circumstances of this particular story they could scarcely have failed to do so), the facts in my articles have not been seriously challenged - and indeed have been endorsed by former JWs writing here.
I think it may be the selection of the facts you don't like - but remember I am not writing to please you, or Jehovah's Witnesses or the WTBTS, but to inform readers who are likely otherwise to be entirely ignorant of the society, what it believes and the passions it arouses in followers and former followers...

Best wishes,

Steve Bates

43

New Guardian Article

by Trilobite in

jw
friends

here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/story/0,2763,574175,00.html

stephen Bates

Thank you all for your comments on my second article, which are much appreciated and will all be studied here. I am afraid the article not only had to wait for space for several days to get in the Guardian at all but was even so cut back quite a lot - space is at a premium in all newspapers these days.
Those of you who know about newspapers will know I had nothing to do with the headline, which was constructed by a sub-editor preparing the text for publication, but I absolutely endorse it. As a number of you have pointed out, it is hard to think of any other description for the Watchtower Society's activities.
The bird seed reference was one sentence that survived, probably because of the incredulity of all of us here at the contempt followers clearly have for those not of their persuasion. There doesn't seem to be much Christian tolerance or love there (perhaps I was naive to expect it) - but again, as someone said, maybe readers will now be alert to what some JWs really think of them as they stand on their doorsteps.
I suppose none of us can disguise prejudice but as a non-JW I can only repeat that I knew nothing to the society's detriment until I started researching and reporting on all this. I am overwhelmed by the amount of hurt and despair about the organisation revealed by the contributors to this discussion forum. Any religious organisation which generates all this must surely have a warped influence and outlook and ought to be asking itself serious questions, especially when it has been shown to be so venal in its behaviour towards its own adherents.
A further article, synthesising the two that have already appeared will be published in this week's edition of Guardian Weekly, which is available around the world and publishes a digest of articles from the Guardian and its sister publications, the Washington Post and Le Monde, but, as yet, I have no plans for any further pieces in the Guardian newspaper in UK - unless I hear from you!

All best wishes and thanks for your comments once again.

Steve Bates

133

MAJOR UN/WTS/NGO NEWS - WTS IS GONE

by hawkaw in

as of 11:45 this morning (i had a telphone call this morning with the refernce department person named holly at 212-963-7234), i can tell you that the watchtower has disassociated itself from the united nations dpi!!!!!!.

the dpi is now taking them off the list.

the dpi requested the list removal to be done this morning!!!!!.

stephen Bates

As the British journalist who wrote the original Guardian article about the Jehovah's Witnesses and the UN, I would like to thank all those who have contacted me since it appeared in Monday's paper. I have been astonished by the response - and by the fact that I have received so far only one critical communication, claiming that because I missed out the coloured in scarlet coloured beast my article was accordingly riddled with inaccuracies.
For the record: I am not and never have been a Jehovah's Witness but that I knew nothing to the group's detriment before I started in my job as the Guardian's religious affairs correspondent and started speaking to members and ex-members. Does this make me an apostate or just bird seed? The source for my UN story continues to be a JW in good standing in their congregation, though privately a pretty disaffected one.
Unfortunately the Guardian Weekly did not carry the story (we missed a trick there) but I hope to write further on this subject and would welcome any further communications, to my email address: [email protected]

Best wishes and thanks,

Steve Bates